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Thread: Ciro Racing Rear Wing/Mounts Group Buy!!!

  1. #31
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    That CIRO wing is atrocious big for me for the street use.
    The bracket is also humongous.

  2. #32
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    I'm an aero dumb dumb so forgive me if this is a silly question...would a front wing be almost more important than a rear because there is almost no weight over the front tires? The idea being to kill understeer. I'm waiting for my wingless 3S to show up so am following the wing threads carefully! Thanks guys!

  3. #33
    Neutrino MadMaxAtom's Avatar
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    If your car does not push the front tires while turning (understeer) or lock up the front tires durning the most demanding braking,then you really don't need any front downforce, or add unnecessary drag up front.
    If the back end of your car oversteers, or lifts the inside tire coming out of a corner, then you need downforce to help the rear of the car.
    My car oversteers in certain conditions,and that is why I am adding downforce to the rear.
    Downforce needs have to be balanced against total aero drag (which reduces acceleration and top speed). Our Atoms already have too much aero drag,and the last thing they need is more that does not help overall performance.
    I have found the front of my Atom to be fine,(no understeer,no wheel lockup) but the back end to oversteer in a 90mph turn,if power is applied aggressively.I run my car hard on track.
    So, the first thing I have added is a rear wing,hoping for about 200lbs of downforce at 90mph. If the need for front downforce should arise, I will address it.

    The Ciro wing option I chose is 71" wide..and wider than most Atoms…however in my case, not. My Atom is 76" wide,so I took full advantage of that room. The brackets are also taller by 5",(revised: now 12")which makes the wing all that more noticeable (and puts it in cleaner air where it works better) The end plates are also the larger option, as I believe they will help stabilize the wing ends from any harmonics (and have a dampening effect)
    As far as the brackets being humongous..compared to what? Don't forget, a functional downforce wing will add significant actual "weight" to the wing support structure,and if it collapses..it is of no use. The Ciro brackets weigh very little and offer minimal drag,so I am very happy with them. The factory Ariel wing supports may be less humongous…but they don't have to support much, if any, downforce pressure as they are mounted too low to have any clean air and be effective. (they are mainly for looks)

    Any functional wing will need to be supported by an equally functional support structure. The support structure should be able to handle the amount of downforce intended,and no more. Less is more.Weight is still the enemy .
    Last edited by MadMaxAtom; October 18, 2015 at 04:14 AM.
    The power of an Atom is a terrible thing to waste! Atom owner/operator since 2007. The more you chase perfection,the faster it becomes. John Force for President! (I asked him once in person...he laughed)

  4. #34
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    Yeah I agree...that size of wing you need a wider-stronger support.
    That size also very effective in the track, it's the street use that I question. I want to find a medium & effective size for street use.

  5. #35
    Neutrino MadMaxAtom's Avatar
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    You can specify any width wing you would like,and the smaller end plates on the wing really lower the "big" factor as well. I really like the design of the Ciro wing upright supports, as it mimics the frame design of the Atom..which to me is a thing of beauty.
    The power of an Atom is a terrible thing to waste! Atom owner/operator since 2007. The more you chase perfection,the faster it becomes. John Force for President! (I asked him once in person...he laughed)

  6. #36
    Fermion Blackbird Fabworx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMaxAtom View Post
    If your car does not push the front tires while turning (understeer) or lock up the front tires durning the most demanding braking,then you really don't need any front downforce, or add unnecessary drag up front.
    If the back end of your car oversteers, or lifts the inside tire coming out of a corner, then you need downforce to help the rear of the car.
    My car oversteers in certain conditions,and that is why I am adding downforce to the rear.
    Downforce needs have to be balanced against total aero drag (which reduces acceleration and top speed). Our Atoms already have too much aero drag,and the last thing they need is more that does not help overall performance.
    I have found the front of my Atom to be fine,(no understeer,no wheel lockup) but the back end to oversteer in a 90mph turn,if power is applied aggressively.I run my car hard on track.
    So, the first thing I have added is a rear wing,hoping for about 200lbs of downforce at 90mph. If the need for front downforce should arise, I will address it.
    Our approach is very different.
    While you're looking to fix a grip issue under very specific conditions (almost sounds like a fix to a mechanical grip problem), we're looking at increasing the overall grip of the vehicle by a significant margin, to bridge the gap between the Atom and a formula car.

    Think of it this way, where you say that the front doesn't understeer, will it start understeering if you got on the gas earlier or tried to take the same corners that you typically run at X speed at X+Y instead?
    That is exactly where increased front grip comes in, the ability to turn harder and faster.
    And while the car is draggy, with the power to weight ratio of the Atom it can certainly take advantage of additional grip offered by a running much more downforce than the 200 Lbs. on the rear that you're aiming for.
    At this power to weight ratio, assuming the car is geared right, additional downforce typically wins over the additional drag caused by the wings.
    In our region we have Auto Club Speedway which is a Roval and WSIR, both of which are very high speed tracks, and even so, the time made in the corners by adding downforce (as well as in braking zones) is typically more than the time lost down the straight by adding drag.

    I will never forget watching Hamilton and Button when they were driving for McLaren duking it out around Monza which is one of the highest speed tracks.
    Button opted for the low drag high speed package while Lewis sacrificed the straightway and went for high downforce package.
    I'll let you guess who was faster
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMaxAtom View Post
    As far as the brackets being humongous..compared to what? Don't forget, a functional downforce wing will add significant actual "weight" to the wing support structure,and if it collapses..it is of no use.
    Any functional wing will need to be supported by an equally functional support structure. The support structure should be able to handle the amount of downforce intended,and no more. Less is more.Weight is still the enemy .
    Agreed.
    We shoot for a lot more downforce than that, our brackets were made to support the loads that we'll introduce to the chassis, no one wants to experience what happens when a car loses a wing at high speed -
    STI Rear Wing Fails at 148mph - Huge Crash by DaPixelater - Car Videos on StreetFire
    Last edited by Blackbird Fabworx; August 17, 2015 at 05:21 PM.

  7. #37
    Neutrino MadMaxAtom's Avatar
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    Bridge the gap between a Formula car and an Atom? Never. Ever. Not with the wings off a 747,or the downforce of a F1 car.
    Todays Formula classes are so much faster than an Atom it's not even on the same planet. Well..maybe an old Formula V or FF..driven on old rubber. However....they didn't allow wings.

    That is not my intention,and I know the limits of my Atom and myself.

    I'm no professional driver...never will be..but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express a couple of times.

    I like my Ciro wing....looks good,well built..reasonably priced..and should do exactly what I intend it to do..knock a few seconds off my times and make my car easier to drive. I'm just a club racer running time trials..I have no ambitions to drive at "Formula" speeds.

    We had a Formula Atlantic 2002 Swift at one of our events this year....driven well. A real race car..a thing to behold. The cornering speeds he could achieve were amazing. It wasn't all about downforce..one small part of the whole package. Cool,but not for me...besides..I don't fit.
    Last edited by MadMaxAtom; August 17, 2015 at 07:24 PM.
    The power of an Atom is a terrible thing to waste! Atom owner/operator since 2007. The more you chase perfection,the faster it becomes. John Force for President! (I asked him once in person...he laughed)

  8. #38
    Fermion Blackbird Fabworx's Avatar
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    We're looking at completely different level of performance.
    The front wing we're using is capable of generating from close to 100 Lbs to well over 300 Lbs of DF @ 80 MPH (min to max AOA), while at 120 MPH the range is going to be from just under 200 Lbs to over 600 (!).
    The rear wing we're using is capable of producing between 140 Lbs to nearly 500 Lbs of DF @ 80 (again, min to max AOA), while at 120 MPH the range is from over 300 Lbs to north of 1000 Lbs (unlikely to be set to that high AOA though..).
    Obviously the thing can be tuned to anything within those ranges and increased or decreased as needed past those range with usage of different end plates and other means.

  9. #39
    Up Quark
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    To:MadMaxAtom
    Could you share, after installing the rear 71" wide Ciro wing, how much in seconds lap time improvement you got? Interesting to know, if you made a clear test in one day and in the same weather conditions the lap time with wing fitted and without. How much was the improvement?
    Thinking to purchase a motorspor wing, to improve the lap time, but since the Atom has no aerodynamic at all from the begining, I doubt that something can help in this way.

  10. #40
    Neutrino MadMaxAtom's Avatar
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    I ran yesterday at WH with the new Ciro wing and could not be happier with the results. I ran the first session with the wing off the car and just the uprights in place..and the car ran similar lap times when I last visited without the wing.I then bolted the wing in place (4 bolts,easy to do) and worked on angles. The car is much more stable above 80mph and lap times proved it. Corners where the car lifted the inner rear wheel could now be powered out of with no wheel spin and sectional lap times dropped. I tried various angles of the wing and settled on 15 degrees for adding sufficient downforce without adding too much additional drag. Yes, the Atom is severely handicapped by too much drag already,and adding more only hurt my top speeds noticeably. With the full 30 degrees of wing attack, my trap speed on the long front straight was 6mph slower,which is considerable. I set my best overall lap times with 15 degrees of wing and the car never felt better. There were sections that were faster with more wing attack angle, but the offsetting drag on the high speed sections was too offsetting and hurt overall lap times. So,there really is such a thing as too much,at least on my car. Maybe with more horsepower to offset the greater drag I could lower my times further,but I am pretty happy with the durability of my car at the power levels I am at. At no time did the front end feel unsettled, including the sessions with full wing angle,so rear wing alone is working fine for me. I set a personal best lap time 1.8 seconds faster than the COM Super Unlimited Whiskey Hill Raceway class record (which is held by me..) but it will have to wait till next year for me to officially break it. Very happy Atom owner...with Ciro wing! (thanks for asking)
    Last edited by MadMaxAtom; August 25, 2015 at 06:18 PM.
    The power of an Atom is a terrible thing to waste! Atom owner/operator since 2007. The more you chase perfection,the faster it becomes. John Force for President! (I asked him once in person...he laughed)

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